Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming)

davyduck (Vlaanderen)
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Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming) Jan 29, 2020 15:15:51 GMT 1

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Post by davyduck (Vlaanderen) on Jan 29, 2020 15:15:51 GMT 1

I have still an idea for a new game. We only take the HC races,

and OS. For every race you can choose one rider. He will score the points. This for every new race. BUT! You can choose a rider only once per season. So if you choose Alaphillipe for RvV you cannot choose him for the OS roadrace. I also like to have unique riders per race. So if Garfield choose to take Alaphillipe at RvV no one else can take Alaphillipe, but in the next race Alaphillipe is available again for all managers except Garfiels as he has used Alaphillipe already.

I think this becomes a tactical game where you have to decide where you want to use a rider and also with the fact of unique riders it becomes even more tactical.

For the pointsystem we can use X points for the winner (where X stands for the number of players who joined this game.) For number 2 it will be X-1, fior the third X-2 and so on. If your rider doesn't finish he will score no points. But he is also not available as he has been chosen...

Any thoughts about this game??

Something in that style came already in my thoughts before.
A concept where you steal riders at the right moment.
But it could be something very simple.
8 free rosterspots, no budget, no nothing.
At start a snake draft to fill in the 8-7-5-3 rosterspots (to be determined: 8 rosterspots demands a lot of activity, while 3 rosterspots demand an easy-going activity throughout the season).
From that moment you drop and contract any free rider you want. He gets points from the moment he is in your team.
The challenge is that you want all the bernals, froomes roglic in your team when TdF

arrives. But only those who pick him first have him. While having him early, this rosterspot cant earn any points in tour de suisse if those 3 don't ride tour de suisse.
Calender might be the WT-calendar.

Any Thoughts?

Garfield (RadioShack, commish)
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Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming) Jan 29, 2020 16:13:14 GMT 1

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Post by Garfield (RadioShack, commish) on Jan 29, 2020 16:13:14 GMT 1

Jan 29, 2020 14:59:48 GMT 1 davyduck (Vlaanderen) said:

My first feeling is that it's a cycling game, not a poker game. It sounds a bit anticlimatic If my riders win the race. Buuuut surprise! I lose because you have 4 A's on your hand ...

I understand. Happy either way. But:
1. Not a surprise, because cards are revealed at showdown, before the race, so you already know you're 70CQ behind (according to my scale above).
2. It becomes less about cycling but much deeper tactically, because in Paris-Roubaix the poker hands are mostly irrelevant (winner gets 280) while in that Tour de Suisse queen stage I might throw away an actual favourite because a pair of aces might score higher if BOTD survives.

Jan 29, 2020 15:15:51 GMT 1 davyduck (Vlaanderen) said:

At start a snake draft to fill in the 8-7-5-3 rosterspots (to be determined: 8 rosterspots demands a lot of activity, while 3 rosterspots demand an easy-going activity throughout the season).
From that moment you drop and contract any free rider you want. He gets points from the moment he is in your team.

Important parameter is whether you're scoring actual CQ or easy, artificial scale e.g. 5-4-3-2-1.
The former case has two huge issues:
1. Sheet design becomes a suicidal task. I'm currently lacking the imagination to pull it off.
2. A single rider might outscore the rest of the league with a dominant GT.

You'd also have to think hard about the timing issues.
Otherwise, the first 5 minutes after Paris-Roubaix might become absolute mayhem.
I shouldn't kick your butt just because I'm online 24/7.

glomser (Vacansoleil)
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Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming) Jan 29, 2020 16:35:59 GMT 1

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Post by glomser (Vacansoleil) on Jan 29, 2020 16:35:59 GMT 1

Jan 29, 2020 10:39:42 GMT 1 Garfield (RadioShack, commish) said:

Perhaps it's safer to allow multiple ownership though, as not repeating the same rider yourself is already challenging enough, and I fear anything on top of that might start to feel completely out of control and random and anticlimactic.

I guess you're right about the multiple ownership. But I tried to avoid teams that are almost the same and it was easier then for the pointsystem. Need to think about this one. Maybe better for next season and keep on thinking how to play this one.

Last Edit: Jan 29, 2020 16:39:05 GMT 1 by Garfield (RadioShack, commish)

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Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming) Jan 29, 2020 16:46:14 GMT 1

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Post by Garfield (RadioShack, commish) on Jan 29, 2020 16:46:14 GMT 1

Jan 29, 2020 16:35:59 GMT 1 glomser (Vacansoleil) said:

I guess you're right about the multiple ownership. But I tried to avoid teams that are almost the same and it was easier then for the pointsystem. Need to think about this one. Maybe better for next season and keep on thinking how to play this one.

Teams won't be the same because you can only choose a guy once. So even though I might agree with you GVA is the favourite for Nieuwsblad, I will pick a different rider just in order to save GVA for later.

I like you idea, and I think it's one of those that only turns out either genius or rubbish in action. So I'm going to propose it with a custom calendar of 1 decision to take every 3-7 days. (Lots of races = more tactics.)

Perhaps artificial scoring 6-4-3-2-1 so that everybody knows how to fill in their own scores easily?

Last Edit: Jan 29, 2020 17:33:38 GMT 1 by Garfield (RadioShack, commish)

glomser (Vacansoleil)
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Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming) Jan 29, 2020 21:51:48 GMT 1

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Post by glomser (Vacansoleil) on Jan 29, 2020 21:51:48 GMT 1

I guess you're right. Some riders liek GVA, Alaphillipe or Sagan are good in several races, so sometimes you can better chose another one than the others... I only haven't thought enough how to [purchase your rider, but as it's a one pick once I guess that's not the biggest problem. If it's possible to do more races it's indeed even more tactical. You can take the smaller races then also.

And perhaps a slight diffence in scoring for the races? fe.

GT's 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1

and OS: 8-6-5-4-3-2-1
All UWT races: 6-5-4-3-2-1
Smaller races 4-3-2-1

But artiflicial will do also.

I'm very bad with formulae in sheets so if there can be some help I would be happy.

Garfield (RadioShack, commish)
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Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming) Jan 29, 2020 22:33:13 GMT 1

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Post by Garfield (RadioShack, commish) on Jan 29, 2020 22:33:13 GMT 1

Martin, I allowed myself to delete your proposal post, because accidentally I was writing the same one simultaneously, and it should be clear to everyone I'd be the one responsible for the sheet, even though the idea is yours. I hope you don't mind!

Jan 29, 2020 21:51:48 GMT 1 glomser (Vacansoleil) said:

And perhaps a slight diffence in scoring for the races? fe.

GT's 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1

and OS: 8-6-5-4-3-2-1
All UWT races: 6-5-4-3-2-1
Smaller races 4-3-2-1

That's a bit fiddly - all people would have to constantly look up all this information, which begs for errors.
Since I'm proposing a one-day version anyway, I'd pick one and keep it equal:
64321 or 5321 or (preferably) 421 like our predictions game - nobody cares if you're 4th anyway!
Then if you wish so, perhaps just double the usual score for monuments, Olympics, and

by special colour-coding?
All that would keep the scores rather low, allowing us to spot inevitable errors immediately.

In other news, Joel sadly decided not to pursue the u23 or women's league, so the proposals are now complete.

Please cast your votes over the next 48 hours.

(Trick: to maintain a clear format, feel free click the button "quote" on my last post, then remove the quotation brackets and edit the answers.)

Last Edit: Jan 29, 2020 23:37:11 GMT 1 by Garfield (RadioShack, commish)

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Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming) Jan 30, 2020 16:36:03 GMT 1

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Post by Garfield (RadioShack, commish) on Jan 30, 2020 16:36:03 GMT 1

My questions to Ace:

1. Are you willing to run this, or should I?

2. Did I understand the "2 cyclists" part correctly when editing your proposal post?

3. When betting on a GT, do I get all points earned, including stages and jerseys?
Either way, I fear that correctly guessing the three GT winners will be enough to eclipse even the most brilliant gambles from other people in smaller races.
One way to overcome this would be to take a look at my Helmet-to-Helmet calendar.
It's quite rhythmical (exactly 1 event per week) and doesn't include the predictable FW or any race that could score 900 CQ points.

4. Are you sure you want to limit us to using a rider max 3 times per season?
Three is just the kind of number that is a bitch to track (not sure whether you considered the sheet yet) but not much of a limitation after all.
I'd suggest either 1 or no limit.

5. Name?

Last Edit: Jan 30, 2020 16:49:08 GMT 1 by Garfield (RadioShack, commish)

ace
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Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming) Jan 30, 2020 17:10:50 GMT 1

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Post by ace on Jan 30, 2020 17:10:50 GMT 1

1. I can set up the sheet (though would accept help if you had any ideas on how to format it). Collective effort to input the bets.

2. 1 or 2 riders per race (don't have to bet every race).

3. Yes, all points. The GT are supposed to be important (they are the biggest races of the year after all) but on reflection a limit of 5 chips per rider for those makes sense.

4. Teams would track themselves and any invalid bets removed at end of season (think i have an easy way to check).

5. Vino's Casino

Regarding (4) i just think it will be really boring without a limit with a lot of people going for Alaphilippe in all the hilly races. I think 3 is a good number where tactics and gambling come into play.

Last Edit: Jan 30, 2020 17:15:34 GMT 1 by ace

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Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming) Jan 30, 2020 17:32:44 GMT 1 Joelsim (BMC) likes this

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Post by Garfield (RadioShack, commish) on Jan 30, 2020 17:32:44 GMT 1

1. Sounds like your Cyclopaths calendar works nicely, so I made the sheet and it's 100% ready - you take over from here?

2-3. How about a more universal 5-per-rider, 10-per-race max?
(If you wanted to get fancy, you could add 10-total-per-rider-per-year on top of all of that!)

4. OK.

5. Vino Casino!

Last Edit: Jan 30, 2020 18:36:40 GMT 1 by Garfield (RadioShack, commish)

ace
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Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming) Jan 30, 2020 17:53:13 GMT 1

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Post by ace on Jan 30, 2020 17:53:13 GMT 1

Jan 30, 2020 17:32:44 GMT 1 Garfield (RadioShack, commish) said:

2-3. How about a more universal 5-per-rider, 10-per-race max?
(If you wanted to get fancy, you could add 10-total-per-rider-per-year on top of all of that!)

I like the idea of being able to bet 10 chips on one rider in the WCRR to make up a deficit and introduce some luck/chaos/meta-games to the process (bets for last few races would be via PM) but agree that the GTs would far outweigh any other races without a 5 chip per rider limit.

I think a 15 chip per rider limit for the year would also be a good addition that would increase tactics and lower the chances of everyone making similar bets.

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Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming) Jan 30, 2020 18:08:59 GMT 1

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Post by Garfield (RadioShack, commish) on Jan 30, 2020 18:08:59 GMT 1

Jan 30, 2020 17:53:13 GMT 1 ace said:

I think a 15 chip per rider limit for the year would also be a good addition that would increase tactics and lower the chances of everyone making similar bets.

Deal. Much easier to control in the sheet than the original "three times" too. Proposal and sheet edited. Sheet 100% ready.

(Which reminds me: you have a bug in Cyclopaths. C21 doesn't sum till the end. Probably added/moved some columns?)

But isn't 100 chips low? You'd be suicidal not to invest 60 into FW 3xGT Rio

. The other 40 you'd have to spend on monuments and bigger tours, so why bother with the whole WT calendar unless we have 250+ chips?

PS
Is that effectively a 'no' from you regarding the other new games, or are you still going to post the full reply?

Last Edit: Jan 30, 2020 21:35:50 GMT 1 by Garfield (RadioShack, commish)

ace
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Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming) Jan 31, 2020 2:56:02 GMT 1

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Post by ace on Jan 31, 2020 2:56:02 GMT 1

Jan 30, 2020 18:08:59 GMT 1 Garfield (RadioShack, commish) said:

Jan 30, 2020 17:53:13 GMT 1 ace said:

I think a 15 chip per rider limit for the year would also be a good addition that would increase tactics and lower the chances of everyone making similar bets.

But isn't 100 chips low? You'd be suicidal not to invest 60 into FW 3xGT Rio

. The other 40 you'd have to spend on monuments and bigger tours, so why bother with the whole WT calendar unless we have 250+ chips?

Fixed Cyclopaths (thanks for letting me know).

Good point regarding the chips, but i'd still like teams to be able to sit out a few races (either tactically or because they are busy/on holiday). I think 200 would be a good number to try out and can adjust in future years if necessary.

I'll post a reply regarding other games.